Brakes
Brakes
We've talked about the brakes earlier...
But I can't remember that there's been discussion about original brake master cylinders dimensions.
Does someone know standard master cylinders diameter and strokes lenght ?
For example Brembo makes master cylinders 19x16, 19x18 or 19x20.
"The Brembo aftermarket radial 19mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm, 18mm or 20mm."
Thinking to upgrade master cylinder to http://www.isrbrakes.se/products/master ... -014.shtml
But I can't remember that there's been discussion about original brake master cylinders dimensions.
Does someone know standard master cylinders diameter and strokes lenght ?
For example Brembo makes master cylinders 19x16, 19x18 or 19x20.
"The Brembo aftermarket radial 19mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm, 18mm or 20mm."
Thinking to upgrade master cylinder to http://www.isrbrakes.se/products/master ... -014.shtml
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
All i know is the stock suzuki front is 5/8 or 16mm ? The tls originally came out with a 1/2"
Re: Brakes
The stock one is 16mm.
Get a used one from an SS.
They are usually radial 16mm and you will notice a small difference.
I think that brembo's 19mm are a bit waste of money and an overkill for the raptor.
Get a used one from an SS.
They are usually radial 16mm and you will notice a small difference.
I think that brembo's 19mm are a bit waste of money and an overkill for the raptor.
Re: Brakes
Do you know what might be stocks fulcrum to piston ratio ?Dante wrote:55 years agoThe stock one is 16mm.
I've been thinking about fulcrum to piston ratio differences between traditional and radial master cylinders...
Because they are different there has to be difference in lever pull distance to force that master cylinder makes ?
Can someone explain this to me or even understand what I mean ?
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
I think I found explanation to radial master cylinders fulcrum to piston ratio
Next need to find how non-radial works...
Quote from http://www.oppracing.com/pages/articles ... cylinders/
Example: 19x16 Billet Non-Folding Radial Brake Master Cylinder
19x16: This specification indicates two values. The first value is the diameter (ie. bore) of the cylinder in millimeters - it is usually 16mm or 19mm. In this case, the diameter is 19mm. The second value is the inter-axis (ie. distance) between the lever's pivot point and the plunger that pushes into the cylinder - it is usually 16mm, 18mm or 20mm. In this case, it's 16mm.
Now that we know what the numbers are, let's figure out what they mean in terms of braking performance. When you are selecting a master, you need to understand that these values trade-off braking sensitivity and braking power.
For the cylinder diameter, as that value increases, you increase your braking power. As you increase the diameter, you increase your cylinder size and increase the volume of brake fluid that you have to compress. This creates a dampening effect that allows you to better modulate the amount of brake pressure. As a general rule of thumb, you would use a 16xXX for a single caliper set-up anda 19xXX for a dual caliper set-up. Of course, there are always exceptions - for example, the stock master cylinder for Yamaha R1's and R6's (which are made by Brembo) use a 16xXX set-up, despite the fact that they have dual front calipers.
For the inter-axis value, as that value increases (ie. the distance gets longer), you are decreasing your sensitivity and increasing your brake power. I don't want to get into the technical aspect or into the physics of it...that's not the goal of this article. If you feel like you need to know more, I would recommend you search Google or How Stuff Works. In a general comparison between a 19x18 and 19x20 configuration (the most common configurations for sportbikes), a 19x18 has more feel but has a little more lever travel than the 19x20. A 19x20 configuration has more braking power and requires less distance to completely pull in the lever.
Ultimately, the optimal configuration is up to you. Brembo recommends the 19x18 configuration for racers and the 19x20 configuration for street riders. In terms of real world examples, the billet master cylinder using in MotoGP is a 19x18 while the master cylinder includes with the Brembo High Performance street kits is a 19x20.
Next need to find how non-radial works...
Quote from http://www.oppracing.com/pages/articles ... cylinders/
Example: 19x16 Billet Non-Folding Radial Brake Master Cylinder
19x16: This specification indicates two values. The first value is the diameter (ie. bore) of the cylinder in millimeters - it is usually 16mm or 19mm. In this case, the diameter is 19mm. The second value is the inter-axis (ie. distance) between the lever's pivot point and the plunger that pushes into the cylinder - it is usually 16mm, 18mm or 20mm. In this case, it's 16mm.
Now that we know what the numbers are, let's figure out what they mean in terms of braking performance. When you are selecting a master, you need to understand that these values trade-off braking sensitivity and braking power.
For the cylinder diameter, as that value increases, you increase your braking power. As you increase the diameter, you increase your cylinder size and increase the volume of brake fluid that you have to compress. This creates a dampening effect that allows you to better modulate the amount of brake pressure. As a general rule of thumb, you would use a 16xXX for a single caliper set-up anda 19xXX for a dual caliper set-up. Of course, there are always exceptions - for example, the stock master cylinder for Yamaha R1's and R6's (which are made by Brembo) use a 16xXX set-up, despite the fact that they have dual front calipers.
For the inter-axis value, as that value increases (ie. the distance gets longer), you are decreasing your sensitivity and increasing your brake power. I don't want to get into the technical aspect or into the physics of it...that's not the goal of this article. If you feel like you need to know more, I would recommend you search Google or How Stuff Works. In a general comparison between a 19x18 and 19x20 configuration (the most common configurations for sportbikes), a 19x18 has more feel but has a little more lever travel than the 19x20. A 19x20 configuration has more braking power and requires less distance to completely pull in the lever.
Ultimately, the optimal configuration is up to you. Brembo recommends the 19x18 configuration for racers and the 19x20 configuration for street riders. In terms of real world examples, the billet master cylinder using in MotoGP is a 19x18 while the master cylinder includes with the Brembo High Performance street kits is a 19x20.
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
Nice info there . Personally i think its a waste to have a radial master unless your running upgraded radial brakes .
Re: Brakes
Methinks it's the logo he's set his heart on, much like our Greek friend!
But anyway..I don't know the piston length but if you're m/c is like my Xtra one it will have "Nissin" on the front of the casting and "ID 5/8" on the back - pointing at your handlebars, it's a bit hard to see the black. Braketech recommend replacing a 5/8" with a 19 by 18mm one - http://www.braketech.com/index.php?opti ... Itemid=101.
But anyway..I don't know the piston length but if you're m/c is like my Xtra one it will have "Nissin" on the front of the casting and "ID 5/8" on the back - pointing at your handlebars, it's a bit hard to see the black. Braketech recommend replacing a 5/8" with a 19 by 18mm one - http://www.braketech.com/index.php?opti ... Itemid=101.
Road racing's where it's at - going round in circles all day is for hamsters.
Re: Brakes
I think that the article has something wrong.
The second value,the inter-axis one,mentions that the larger it is,the more distance the lever travels and that reduces sensitivity.
Thats wrong because when you have more travel you can control more efficient how much power you apply to the lever.
Also,the smaller is that value,then it has more travel.
The stock master has enough braking power for the raptor brakes but lacks sensitivity.I have gotten used to it but if someone wants to improve it then i suggest a 16mm radial which has the same braking power but has more travel and provides better brake control.
Yes the top solution is a brembo 19x20 but it costs 270E ,while a used R1 radial costs 200+ euros less.
If you re going for a new front end with radial brembos 320mm discs etc then for the top braking get the brembo.
Otherwise a used ss radial is ok.
The second value,the inter-axis one,mentions that the larger it is,the more distance the lever travels and that reduces sensitivity.
Thats wrong because when you have more travel you can control more efficient how much power you apply to the lever.
Also,the smaller is that value,then it has more travel.
The stock master has enough braking power for the raptor brakes but lacks sensitivity.I have gotten used to it but if someone wants to improve it then i suggest a 16mm radial which has the same braking power but has more travel and provides better brake control.
Yes the top solution is a brembo 19x20 but it costs 270E ,while a used R1 radial costs 200+ euros less.
If you re going for a new front end with radial brembos 320mm discs etc then for the top braking get the brembo.
Otherwise a used ss radial is ok.
Re: Brakes
In future, I'm also investigating for new upgraded radial brakes.ozzraptor wrote:55 years agoNice info there . Personally i think its a waste to have a radial master unless your running upgraded radial brakes .
So your choice is either 19x16, 19x18 or 19x20.Dante wrote:55 years agoI think that the article has something wrong.
The second value,the inter-axis one,mentions that the larger it is,the more distance the lever travels and that reduces sensitivity.
Thats wrong because when you have more travel you can control more efficient how much power you apply to the lever.
Also,the smaller is that value,then it has more travel.
The stock master has enough braking power for the raptor brakes but lacks sensitivity.I have gotten used to it but if someone wants to improve it then i suggest a 16mm radial which has the same braking power but has more travel and provides better brake control.
Yes the top solution is a brembo 19x20 but it costs 270E ,while a used R1 radial costs 200+ euros less.
19x16 (stock) requires the least lever effort but the longest pull distance for the best modulation.
19x18 requires 11% lighter pull and 11% longer pull distance than the 19x20 MC. More feel (better modulation characteristics) than the 19x20
19x20 requires the most lever force but the shortest pull. More like a trigger action.
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
Made some research today... Here is something what I found:
Differencies between traditional and radial master cylinder
It is said that radial master cylinder has "better feel".
That "better feel" is caused by levers more direct movement to cylinder (can be seen in the picture)
Leverage ratio explained
How to measure pivot distance in traditional and radial master cylinder Radial master cylinder picture with interesting measures. See lever moving distance1 (118-96=)22mm
Differencies between traditional and radial master cylinder
It is said that radial master cylinder has "better feel".
That "better feel" is caused by levers more direct movement to cylinder (can be seen in the picture)
Leverage ratio explained
How to measure pivot distance in traditional and radial master cylinder Radial master cylinder picture with interesting measures. See lever moving distance1 (118-96=)22mm
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
It's all a bit over my head, TBH, but this guy does a pretty good job of suggesting a way to choose: http://www.customfighters.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=56704
Road racing's where it's at - going round in circles all day is for hamsters.
Re: Brakes
Stock is not 19X16.
It's 16xsomething
I'd say from my experience that,
19x16 has more travel and thus better sensitivity but needs more force
19x20 has less travel but need less force for the same braking
That is easily figured out because the further the point from the axle,the biggest the torque that it applies but also smaller distance for the same amount of travel of the piston.
19x20 is the top because you can brake with one finger and even endo like this.
But if you are not used to the small travel of the lever then you might have problem.
For street usage I'd go for the 19x16 or 19x18.
19x20 would be better for track where hard braking is required often.
It's 16xsomething
I'd say from my experience that,
19x16 has more travel and thus better sensitivity but needs more force
19x20 has less travel but need less force for the same braking
That is easily figured out because the further the point from the axle,the biggest the torque that it applies but also smaller distance for the same amount of travel of the piston.
19x20 is the top because you can brake with one finger and even endo like this.
But if you are not used to the small travel of the lever then you might have problem.
For street usage I'd go for the 19x16 or 19x18.
19x20 would be better for track where hard braking is required often.
Re: Brakes
Because stock isnt radial mc its dimensions are more like cross-pump master cylinder like in one of the picsDante wrote:55 years agoStock is not 19X16.
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
Re: Brakes
Hah, just read the article where those last pics came from - sounds like you might want to consider the adjustable RCS ones!
Road racing's where it's at - going round in circles all day is for hamsters.
Re: Brakes
This is the article we are talking about, worth reading.Spyke wrote:55 years agoHah, just read the article where those last pics came from - sounds like you might want to consider the adjustable RCS ones!
http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/nov2012tech.pdf
http://www.isrbrakes.se/products/master ... -014.shtml
This is mastercylinder I dream about, with these sexy buttons in mc mountings.
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !