Ethanol in fuel

[Bear of Little Brain]

I tried to post a lengthy piece on this yesterday, but I was timed out and lost the lot when I "non-posted". So I'm going to keep this short(ish).
There is a previous post on this, but it seemed more heat than light, with a dash of complacency, possibly.

I'll start with just this link. It is the Qinentiq report commissioned by the DoT. It is worth reading in detail to get some idea of the damage that ethanol can do to our fuel systems (including carburettors).

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/techfiles/ ... _study.pdf

There is much more to be discussed, I think, but I hope this will elicit some responses from others who have already looked into this in some detail. I have looked at a number of sites, but so far have not found a comprehensive posting that summarises what we should be doing. I have a number of possibilities, but would prefer to know what others have already discovered and what actions they have taken.

At this point, I would be interested in any comments concerning the vulnerability of the fuel tank in particular. The Ducati owners seem to have particular problems with "softening" tanks. One quote:
"The fuel softens epoxies so that it erodes from the carbon fabric itself. When you say that the fuel had got into the weave, it sounds like it had eroded the epoxy from the fabric, the matrix had broken down. No amount of drying would prevent fuel from getting into the weave again, the space between the fibers would need to be filled in again to prevent fuel penetration. The problem being that introducing epoxy into the fabric in situ is difficult and there is no guarantee that the new matrix will be fully cured and able to resist the eroding affect of the fuel once again."

http://www.ducati851and888.com/showthre ... ht=ethanol

Here are a couple of quotes from that DoT report illustrating the potential problems:

"In some cases where the E10 fuel is not compatible with material present in the fuel system, the material can be attacked and the resulting debris can result in filter blockage or worse. For example:
• Stripping of fuel tank sealant leading to fuel filter blockage and eventual complete fuel system fouling [17]
• Extraction of binding agent from glass fibre reinforced fuel tanks [14] (glass fibre reinforced polyester and epoxy resins being particularly affected [18])
• Stripping of protective plating from the interior of a vehicle fuel tank, for example terne plate, leading to filter blockage [19].
It has been suggested that this filter blockage can be simply dealt with by changing the blocked filter [19]. The possible scenario is very much more serious than that. For instance, a sudden loss of power on a motorway is possible (as opposed to gradual loss), followed by an unpowered cruise across three lanes of traffic and a fuel filter change on the hard shoulder represents a very serious risk to the safety of the vehicle occupants and other road users in the immediate vicinity."

"Discussions have been held with the sole manufacturer of SU carburettors and Amal carburettors, a UK based company [23]. They have received reports from the US and Australia of corrosion in Amal carburettors where bronze is in contact with zinc. The corrosion occurs when the vehicle is placed into storage with an undrained fuel system. After only a few weeks corrosion occurs producing a fine white powder that blocks the carburettor jets. The solution is to completely drain the fuel system prior to the vehicle being stored.
This company has also undertaken compatibility ‘soak’ testing of its products in petrol/ethanol blends (E10 and E85). They have observed degradation and corrosion of brass components. To prevent this degradation, it has been found necessary to modify the carburettors. Elastomeric components have to be made from Viton, carburettor needles have to manufactured from nickel silver alloy rather than brass and jets originally made from brass have to be manufactured from manganese bronze alloy.
Clearly even at the current level of ethanol in petrol there is still potential for galvanic corrosion in carburettors. Modification of the materials used in the construction of the carburettor seems the only solution if these components are exposed to petrol ethanol blends."

[snapdragon]

this looks like an evil government plan agin bikes to me

[vassilis67]

Nothing to worry about really....here in Greece there are no evil E10 E80 or any other Esomething. Just plain unleaded and 100 octane juice.
But i will keep that in mind when i will visit your beautiful country.

[AZ]

The FBHVC(fedration of british historic vehicle clubs) have been on the case of this for a while now conducting tests and also Burlen fuel systems who now make all Su carbs and parts.It would seem that it isn`t a good thing and tests are showing that if the fuel is left to stand in the system dormant for any length of time them it will attack some types of plastic and rubber including seals and hoses(dependant on material)and will also start galvanic corrossion resulting in white powder etc on brass etc.It will also attack some tank sealants and plating resulting in blocked filters.It doesn`t have any advantage to the fuel consumption ,in fact the opposite seems to be the case .It is to satisfy the green argument about pollution.Ducati USA have had lots of claims against the plastic tanks on the latest bikes being that they expand and blow out of shape due to the ethanol and heat etc.The government seems to think that a vehicle has a useful life of 13 years and after that it isn`t a problem so stuff all the minorities that have anything older or with carbs etc.You can find more on this on the FBHVC web site under bio fuels ,scroll down below the red diesel info and it`s there with tables of the materials that it attacks.It doesn`t make for happy reading.

[Bear of Little Brain]

@ vassilis67: Don't really want to drift off-topic, but:
Lucky you! Apparently Wall Street and friends overlooked screwing you over on the great biofuels scam. Guess they were too busy bribing your politicians in order to look good for the Euro. Once that was done, they simply followed the usual modus operandi: pull the plug and take anything of worth for themselves. Good luck over there. (Not that we aren't about to get hammered ourselves, BTW.) Oh, and please visit soon – that "beautiful country" is fast disappearing.
_______________________

@ AZ: Thanks for your comment. I had read that FBHVC stuff, but wanted to keep my opening comments for this thread fairly short. Same with the Burlen info (they also make Amal cabs as fitted on my new baby).
_______________________

Here is the FBHVC link concerning recommended additives. Note that this only relates to protecting metals, though. Hence my main concern about the fuel tank. I'd like add fuel lines and gaskets, washers and seals to that.
http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/04/13/fuel-stab ... t-results/

Supplier links:
Flexolite Ethanolmate
http://www.flexolite.co.uk/cat.asp?cID=1
Miller's Oils additives (with info links):
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/automo ... ochure.pdf
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/automo ... 20Fuel.pdf
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/automo ... assics.pdf
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/automo ... 0Range.pdf
Frost Ethomix:
http://www.frost.co.uk/protect-your-veh ... st-ethanol
http://www.frost.co.uk/additives-oils/c ... itive.html

Cynical old me wonders if any of these are repackaged, rebranded products from elsewhere (the USA would be a contender, I would think).

FWIW, I noticed that Frost have a test kit for ethanol content:
http://www.frost.co.uk/additives-oils/c ... t-kit.html

Just for general interest, and in danger of becoming repetitive, here are a couple of other links expressing concerns:
http://fagengine.com/tech/ethanol-warning/
http://www.mgccyregister.com/technical_ ... es/ethanol
http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wes ... pdate.html

That last link specified several ethanol-free fuels, but I think it is probably way out of date.
I am emailing the companies mentioned to find out if they still have ethanol-free fuels and will re-post when I have their answers.

[dizzyblonde]

Never did get to the bottom of why my tank got the pox. Still feel it was petrol related. The new one is fine...touch wood, but I havent looked in a while. It's very empty anyhow


I shall read this thread properly tomorrow!

[shedmonkey]

Its a pain but i think we just have to live with it.

The comment in the qinetic paper about filling station hardly ever phese seperating is total bollocks, mainly due to the fact that the filling station wants the problem sorted with minimum fuss, and so doesnt let the fuel company know. I would say that most filling station tanks have some amount of phase seperation but in 99% of occassions would not get into your tank.(i work as filling station maintenance engineer)

On our bikes we have issues with tank drain pipes and on no account should any water be allowed to sit in the tank!

What can we do reengineer our fuel systems? Probably not

And i dont think you will find anywhere selling ethanol free fuel, the last sites in my area went E5 about 2 months ago including superunleaded.

[Bear of Little Brain]

Update:

So far I've had replies from Valero (Texaco), Shell, BP and am still waiting on Esso/Exxon:

Texaco/Valero:

"Please be advised that we do offer ethanol free fuel in some parts of the country. If you are happy to provide us with the area that you live, we will be able to confirm if your area has ethanol free fuel."

I didn't follow up on asking about my area in particular, but did ask for a breakdown of availability across the country, which they did not answer but did refer to the Technical Dept., with this response:

"Our Technical Fuels Department has advised as follows:

It is becoming increasingly difficult to advise which petrol does not contain bio ethanol, this is especially true for the Premium grade. A bit of background, as you are aware, manufacturers of road fuels in Europe have an obligation to meet the requirements of the European Renewable Energy Directive. The current most satisfactory way, agreed by the motor and oil industries, to achieve this obligation, is to incorporate Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME) into diesel and bio ethanol into petrol.
In order to help achieve this regulation, the European Fuel Quality Directive, currently allows up to 7% FAME to be blended into diesel and 5% bio ethanol to be blended into petrol and these values are reflected in the European fuel standards EN590 for diesel and EN228 for petrol.

The European Commission then asked the European fuel technical committees (CEN), which include experts from both the motor and oil industries, to prepare a fuel standard for petrol which would allow 10% ethanol to be blended (E10).
Some Super Unleaded Petrol is ethanol free, but not all and due to the complexity of the fuel distribution system, we cannot guarantee zero ethanol."

Shell:

"The amount of bio-ethanol blended in petrol for Vpower and Fuelsave
will be max 5 % in volume as stipulated by the British and European
petrol specification BS EN228. The petrol will comply at all times
with the national specifications for fuel quality. There is no
labelling of the bio-ethanol content at the pump. "

BP:

"In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.

Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK.
All BP fuels, regular and BP Ultimate, contain additives which have cleaning and protection properties for the engine. BP Ultimate has been rigorously tested on a wide range of vehicles, covering thousands of miles, in various conditions. Its advanced formula offers a wide range of benefits including better fuel efficiency, more power, better responsiveness, and lower exhaust emissions, all of which gives long term benefit and value to the consumer and their vehicle."

The BP response is identical to one I saw on some classic car site recently, so it is probably their standard response. At least it is definitive concerning Ultimate Unleaded, so I'll be following up on BP first.

To some extent, I agree that we may just have to live with it, but I think we should also be aware of the possibility of it causing problems longer-term. Bear in mind that this fuel-instead-of-food madness (IMO) may move to 10% content or even higher, causing greater problems.

On the slightly positive side, I did come across an Amal document
http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/TechnicalDetail.aspx?id=10
which said this concerning their products:

"Component Design Compatibility

For fuel blends containing less than 5% ethanol the concentration is low enough not to cause any significant effect. For 5% to 10% blend then some changes are recommended, (albeit that the USA has been subjected to this concentration for sometime without any known problems). For above 10% the effects of ethanol are known to cause problems and the necessary modification that would be required would extend beyond those of just our product content in a vehicle."

Unfortunately, they were less positive about other materials:

" • Permeability

Ethanol readily permeates through elastomers and plastics resulting in a deterioration of these materials." [my emphasis]

Which puts me back to my concerns about our fuel tanks.

My next step is to fork out for an ethanol-content test kit
http://www.frost.co.uk/additives-oils/c ... t-kit.html
and see how that goes with BP Ultimate.

Will post again when I have checked out BP.

[shebee]

Thanks for all your research and for taking the time to share

[AZ]

I second that ,much appreciated.

[Bear of Little Brain]

Update (mostly so that I can keep track of what I'm doing!):
_______________________________

I've ordered the ethanol test kit and will test BP Ultimate first, when it arrives.
_______________________________

On fuel tank lining:
I've contacted a German company called Fertan
http://www.fertan.de/fertanfilmeng.html#
They have a product called Tapox/TX10
http://www.fertan-shop.de/shop/article_ ... 3D24000%26

I came across it from here:
http://www.grintriumph.com/Triumph%20mo ... s%2010.htm

I emailed Fertran about it, and received this reply:

Yes TAPOX is resistant against even 100% ethanol, used at competition
engines in steel tanks.
A test in Danmark Jan./Febr 2012 has shown this, only TAPOX has been
resistant. Not some others which maintain this too.

TAPOX is a 2-part epoxy and in plastic or in glass fibre tanks the adhesion
inside would not be perfect.
Therefore all tanks in plastic or glass fibre have be protected OUTSIDE as
base for painting by a special primer which prevent that fuel could diffuse
through the plastic or glass fibre.

This method will be used by e.g. all modern motor- bikes and their
producers. E.g. BMW say if the tank is damaged by an accident it cannot be
repaired it have to be fitted in new. At Ducati it could be the same. My
Ducati 900 SS has a steel tank .

I then spoke to their representative who, it turns out, lives in the same town as I do.
He told me that Tapox has been used for coating non-metallic tanks by one company. However, he had advised them against it because their product can affect/weaken/attack (not sure which) plastics/epoxies/etc. unless the coating is carried out under very controlled conditions (I got the impression that this was mostly to ensure their product was cured sufficiently quickly, but I'm not certain.)
Having said that, he suggested that I contact Caswell UK since they offer a product which they say does protect against ethanol in mon-metallic fuel tanks.

Here is Caswell's reply to my enquiry:

We do have a product that can help you, and while we would not to take
business away from Alan and Fertan, our product can be used to line both
Fibreglass (and similar materials) as well as metal tanks. The product is
called GTS1750 - Gas Tank Sealer. This product is produced by our USA
Office, Caswell Inc.) and has been on the market for about 21 years in the
USA and about 11 years in the UK and Europe. It is currently ethanol proof
up to 80%.

We are attaching herewith a paper written by our Chemist on how to restore a
petrol tank and also the Technical Data Sheet for your information.

GTS1750 has also recently been approved by the LLA (Light Aircraft
Authority) for use in light aircraft tanks. This was after the product had
been on test for 16 months. So you see we have every confidence in this
product and currently sell around 100 units per month to a variety of users.
We have stockists in the UK and Finland who are using and selling on this
product. If you require a company to seal tanks for you we would strongly
recommend Hitchcock Motorcycles who are based in The Midlands. However, the
product is user friendly and can be used by the individual motorcyclist.

Fertan's Tapox product is a good ethanol resistant product and we have found
it affective for tanks of 15 litres or less, made of steel. Due to the
control necessary, we did in the early days, find that one or two of our
clients did have problems with it being rejected by the tank fabric.
Therefore, although we can recommend for the small metal tank, we would not
recommend for fibreglass, plastic, carbon fibre or other composite type
tanks.

Here (I hope) are the attachments in pdf format:

[Bear of Little Brain]

Oops. Cocked up the attachment process and couldn't see how to delete the duplicate.

Will someone please confirm that they can read/download the pdf's.

[shedmonkey]

yeah i can read the pdfs. up here (cumbria) BP ultimate is E5. It is worth checking though because the standard unleaded should have gone E5 (upt north) about 2 years ago but hadnt so when they finally delivered it the water test was out of date and you guessed it phase seperation. I know i keep going on about it but keep your tanks dry.

I have stripped and repaired a lot of equipment running with E5 and have have not seen any obvious corrossion or degredation except for rubber parts and gaskets. In my opinion the problem is not a major one.

Any deformation of fuel tanks is probably only a problem when the tank is left off the bike.

So im not worrying about it.

[AZ]

No problems for me reading /downloading all those pdf`s.You have been busy haven`t you.Not time to read them all now but my experience of tank sealers and plastic tanks is the problem with adhesion as the the expansion rates of the sealers and the tanks are different and without the ability to abrade the surface for the sealant to hold onto the surface then eventually it lets go and blocks all the filters etc.The other type of sealers that chemically bond to plastic do de stabilize the plastic and and cause premature failure of the plastic structure unless the plastic is really thick and our tanks do have some areas that are fairly thin.I haven`t tried any of the type that chemically bond so really can`t comment too much on them.The Buell owners out there with the tube frame bikes (S1,S2,M2)know all about the problems of paint lifting on plastic tanks but those tanks are really poor and nothing seems to work with those.They are now having tanks made in aluminium at great cost .

[Bear of Little Brain]

Thanks for the confirmation, Shed/AZ. Also the real-world comments.

Shed: You're probably right, but now I'm into this investigation I'll see it through. There also seems to be the possibility of moving to an E10 fuel: it seems madness to me to turn agricultural land over to fuel production, especially given its poor energy-return-on-energy-invested, but (cynicism alert) politicians are easily bought…
Because of where my Rappie is stored up, it's too much hassle to go and drain the fuel system now, but I'll keep your "dry tank" advice in mind for next winter.

AZ: The poor bonding issue had come up a couple of times when investigating coatings for 'plastic' tanks. It struck me as odd, since I had expected some kind of "lightly abrade the surface with x before treatment", where the abrasion would be via some kind of powder blasted through a flexible hose into and around the inside of the tank to scour it.

Anyway, I shall plod on with this. Something useful may come out of it. That Qinetiq report mentioned in my first posting on this postulated (ooh, haven't used that word for some time) a situation in which the fuel system could become clogged and cut out whilst at speed in the fast lane of a busy motorway. Not something that I like to think about.
________________________________

Stupidly , I'd been wondering how to get some pure ethanol so that I could carry out a test on the underside of the fuel tank when the bike comes out of storage. For some reason I'd been thinking ethanol was somehow "different", probably because it is called "ethanol", not "grain alcohol" or "hooch", which is what it is. Wiki put me straight on that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Denatured_alcohol
In the absence of the ready availability of the pure stuff, I guess I'll just have to sacrifice some vodka. Good excuse for trying to find a 40%. (Quick check shows my Smirnoff 21 as 37.5%.)

I read somewhere that Henry Ford's Model T was originally designed to run on alcohol/ethanol, because that was the fuel that most farmers could readily produce at a time when the US was (no pun intended) still a very rural economy and before "Big Oil" became big. Of course, prohibition conveniently put an end to that and left Big Oil with the fuel monopoly and Joe Kennedy with a fortune running illicit booze – they say. (Rant alert) Always follow the money, just like our war criminal Blair and his £60M and his JP Morgan job. But I digress … and it's getting late