Suspension again!

[slartybartfarst]

My Rap runs a Hagon rear shock....looks newish but still flaps about in bends.

After fitting new tyres and bedding in I took the Rap out on a 100mile run of fast to nagerdy A roads. I know my rear suspension has some stiction compared to my mates bike, its not that bad but enough to stop the suspension returning by about an 1/2" from whence it bounced and sounding a bit squeaky.....anyroad i noticed when keeled over and a road bumplet is encountered the front fails to boing enough and then the rear catches the bump and flicks the whole bike about flapping the front end. Not a good combination!....having owned a 500 H1 tripple kwack i think this is feeling like tank slap territory!!

Checking out the rear suspension I see there are no grease nipples, so these will be fitted (ill post pics) im guessing there are no grease channels /holes but this I will solve. This is just bad engineering no wonder the suspension seizes and yes i know others are the same but all for the want of a pair of nipples.......sounds rather pervey at my age!

Obviously first thing to do is pull the rear suspension apart and sort Ive seen the bearings/seals mentioned here so im off to bearing the specialist.

Now to the front end, we know there was a tie between Suzuki and Cagiva as in the huge V twin lump between ones legs! But theres a lot more of the bike from Suzuki sometimes not just exact parts (seat latch mech for instance) but influence in design. The forks are patten GSXR 1000 certainly K5 K6 but probably back to K2 and in my oppinion there is no better production bike front end so it strikes me as odd there is so much differance between how the 2 bikes track at the front.

On the flip side worst comes to worst just shell out £250 to Ebay and fit GSXR legs but theres brakes, wheels and gaurd mounts to considder so I will be checking out whats inside the Cagiva legs compared to Suzuki. Ive seen here that Manxton do a swap for Suz insides but Im sure there must be a step down from this without shelling £££s out.

If the Cagiva legs are same as GSXR then stiction should not be a problem, in which case whats going on inside to cause all this lack of response, is it wear or design??

First im going to get the front too bouncy and with the rear suspension sorted and probably raised 1"put some miles in to determine where to go with modding the front, If i can help it i dont want the fit a steering damper.

Im an engineer not a suspension expert but hopefully with a bit of logical problem solving and the sublime suspension of my GSXR 1000 K6 to use as a benchmark I can get close.

[kev]

hi mate a lot of us have been down this road with suspension mods
but as far as i know there is no connection between suzuki and cagiva as far as the forks go the internals are way different you can however swap internals as a lot of us have done I've used yam stuff myself its all in the tech pages somewhere good luck get it right and its well worth it.
ps i have a pair of yam internals moded to fit rap forks all you need to do is get the thread recut to suit the top

[slartybartfarst]

Thanks for the info on the Yam swap, no point in reinventing the wheel! or suspension in this case!! I have an engineering company so recutting the threads will be no prob. Just would like to get the bike to track better when cranked over, I can't risk realy tippin in with the suspension as it is.

[kev]

by fitting the R1 internals this gives you adjustable preload and rebound but not compression damping although you can achieve this by playing with the oil
or if you are an engineer you could machine the Rap fork bottoms and add adjusters
if you want my R1 internals yours for £45 plus post

[pod]

Front forks,originally off the Marzochi shelf. I got mine done at Maxton, big improvement , comp damping is too stiff as stock.

Hagon shock, I use one , they have adjustable damping via a wee allen screw at the lower end, I think its screw in for more damping.They are good value, not ultimate bling, but very well engineered and more than good enough for road riding.

Heres the biggie,
rear suspension geometry, this has more effect on pinning the front down on bumps than anything else Ive changed.
There are 3 ways to do this, raise the rear with a longer shock, but you already have a decent shock.
Different triangles . Cheaper than dog bone mod, others have done it and liked it , I cant comment cos I dont know.
Different dog bone , this is what I fitted , supplied from Baines Racing, best £100 I spent on the bike.
Saddle height now 32 inch with one inch more foam as well.
Do this before spending money on forks.

I suspect the stock geometry was a compromise to allow a low saddle height and lure in short folk.


Suspension linkages, need regular stripping and lubing, grease nipples are not fitted as stock unfortunately.
If yours is sticky then some bearing is goosed, probably the link connection from the triangles to the swing arm , that seems to go first.
Cheers

Pod

[slartybartfarst]

Pod yea what you say about the rear end being a compromise for leg challenged folk makes sense, its as if it was 1" higher on some prototype bikes and they dropped it thus exacerbating the front fork problems. My mates Rap has triangles re made that gives the higher back end and ridden back to back you can feel the improvement over mine straight away so this is first job.

On to the rear shock, I have a place in the Isle of Man so get to give the bikes a good thrape. The Rap did not disgrace itself on the TT course but after 1 and 1/2 laps on a warmish day the front forks suddenly became noticeably better but followed 1/2 a lap later by zero rear damping!

The rear shock was so hot from the exhaust the damping oil would be like water, one second I had damping and the next the bike was poggoing round corners all over the place.

Up front where things were better the front legs were warm possibly due to the really bumpy road section warming the oil through friction.

Maybe this points to why Raps have their problems. The rear shocks deteriorate due to the heat from the exhaust. The front boingers were ok in a hotter climate and with the arse end of the bike up 1"

Oh and my previous claims for GSXR forks being perfect were rose tinted glasses, i rode the GSXR at Rapt0r speeds and they were quite hard, going faster there must be some down force from the fairing because they seem to come into their own so just bunging them on the Rap may not be a solution. Lets face it Maxton make a living by knowing what they are doing so i may give them a call.

[pod]

Interesting about the shock getting hot, I always wondered if that was a possibility, perhaps some exhaust lagging would help there. I have noticed something similar after 100 miles or more two up in warm weather.
I beleive the Xtra raptors came with a different , raised seat height, I know the Xtra rap shock is a tad longer, maybe had different triangles as well? I have an Xtra rap rear shock but havent got round to fitting it, I am happy enough with the Hagon.
Maxton do good work, but check turn around time, I had mine done over Winter and it still took over 3 weeks.

[slartybartfarst]

Exaust lagging is a perfect solution, i was looking at a metal plate deflecting cool air onto the exaust and sheilding the shocker. If you look at Ducati 1098 that shock is well sheilded from the exaust by such a plate but for a retrofit onto the Rap exaust lagging is defo the best option.

Mind you theres probably no need as the rear exaust is normaly water cooled curtesy of our traditional British Summertime monsoon weather!

The TT course allows a lot of extend full throttle full power scooting about and when i stopped and looked at the exaust it was blue indicating it had probably been glowing red but then again it will do with a bloody great 500cc pot on full chat and its tucked out the way next to a hot cylinder. That sort of abuse is going to nacker any shocker in no time so to retain the performance of my Hagon im going to lag the rear exaust outlet pipe. Again maybe this is why the rear shocks are so bad, maybe they start off ok but given a hot day and a bit of thraip the deterioration would start.

What amazed me was how quick the rear shock changed from OK to pooped!................. mid corner too. Aghhhhh Boing......... Boing........... Boing............. look out hedge 1,000cc pogo stick comming your way!

[Frankiesan]

ROFLMAO

1000cc pogo stick.. Legend!

[slartybartfarst]

Just bought exaust wrap from ebay, phoned the guy up to talk exaust wrap! He knows his stuff!! Basicly its dyed silver to look kinky but given 2 weeks it will go back to white however whats needed is the 3mm thick and 50 mm wide cause its much easyer to lock wire in place.

I Guess ill do this when i do the triangles/bearings/seals/nipples.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0150647420.

[slartybartfarst]

What a revalation....new bearings fitted and greased in the suspension links!! Ive ridden the bike for a month and a bit including a couple of TT laps and it freed up the rear linkage during which I found the shocker could get cooked by the exaust so also took the oppertunity to exaust wrap the rear exaust pipe, all that heat is not so good for shock life.

The bearings in the alloy dog bone needed a dedicated press to remove but if this was not on hand i would have heated the link in the oven and used a vice. The bearings in the arm were removed it situe by a piece of threaded rod and some bits of tube. On inspection they all seemed fine so I fitted the new ones without much hope of improvement, but the bike was transformed!

The biggest improvement was to the front, seems like the tail was wagging the dog so to speak.

I also fitted some home made triangles with the shocker mount lifted 15mm, on my bike this has raised the back about 25mm to give better ground clearance, a side stand that leans the bike correctly and hopefully a bit quicker stearing but as yet i detect no difference cause the whole bike feels so good!

I would reccomend a new set of bearings if you have any handling issues.

[snapdragon]

What a revalation....new bearings fitted and greased in the suspension links!!
..
I would reccomend a new set of bearings if you have any handling issues.

thanks for that report slarty
mine should be fitted this week - am looking forward to the change , shame I just came back from a weekend in mid Wales
maybe I'll have to go again just to test the new swingarm (thanks Kev) and bearings when they're fitted

[slartybartfarst]

No probs ive got a bit of time so can describe the bearing removal tool=

1) Take a socket out your socket set that is just smaller than the new bearing diamiter.
2) Find a long bolt or piece of studding, it needs to be at same dia at the bolts you just removed and at least 150mm
3) Put the inner bush back in and the studding with the socket on and a nut on the end
4) now on the other side of the swing arm drop a piece of tube (or socket) that is bigger that the bearing dia over the studding
5) Place on the studding a very thick washer (or a pack of thin ones) to bear onto the tube then follow with a nut
6) Take up the tension holding 1 nut with mole grips and a socket on the other side
7) As you wind on the pressure a seal and bearing will be forced into the bigger tube/socket
Undo the assembly and take away the bearing and seal
9) Remove the socket from the swing arm and place on the edge of the hole a new bearing
10) fit a washer and nut on top of the bearing now wind this in
11) Now remove the nut and refit the socket with a nut to push the bearing right home pushing out bearing 2
12) remove bearing 2 and the socket fit the second new bearing in the mouth of the hole now again use just a washer and a nut to pull in the second bearing
13) Finaly once the second bearing is flush add the socket back again to push both bearings finaly into position

You can do this on the dig bone too but it may need some heat first

[slartybartfarst]

FRONT FORK FIX!!!

Thanks to Rob at R&S motorcycles tyres Leicester for this fix! After he had chance to witness the much improved fork operation on a Rap in with Manxton modded forks I think the seed was sown to try improve his own forks. I dont think there is any disagreement that Manxton know their stuff and there is no way that anyone is claiming to be an expert here but a little bit of experimentation may improve matters.....I dont think you could make the forks much worse!!

The real proof came when we ran my standard forks back to back with his bike.....this mod works its transformed my bike as well.

Cant say if its as good as a Manxton set up but its a lot cheaper!

Before I start I must say we both have progressive Hagon fork springs and although these seemed promising when initialy fitted ( before this mod) that disappointing 40mm sag was still there and as we know most of the front fork movement is wasted before you even sit on the bike.

In addition we both have modified triangles that jack up the rear...again this improves the rear end suspension and ground clearance but tips weight forwards and the forks really show up!

So to the mod. The first part gets the spring compressed and provides a sensible bench mark 15mm sag.

The forks need to be stripped and the damper rods removed then two 10 mm thick spacers (like 10mm thick alloy pollos!) are inserted. One under the damper so put this in before the damper is refitted and the other goes on the top of the damper rod so that 13mm of thread is left to screw into the fork top nuts.

Next to deal with the damping re fill the forks with 5 weight oil leaving a 100mm air gap ( measured to the top of the fork tube in bottom position with the pollo spacer, damper and plastic slug in place but no spring).

I know it sounds simple but it really works, this set-up was found after a lot of experimentation, maybe it will work with the standard springs as well. It makes such a differance but then again the standard set up is so bad.

I know there's no adjustment to twiddle however the transformation seems spot on and lets face it once we find the correct suspension settings do they ever get changed again!


Also Further to my attempts to protect the rear shock from heat using exhaust wrap the back exhaust got so hot the gasket was burnt alive! So I cant recommend this mod, the shock was protected though....however I've now bolted a piece of 1/8" alloy plate to the rear exhaust using an car exhaust clamp and this shields the shock keeping it cool.

[weirdo]

Sounds a good (and cheap) mod there slarty. It's a shame you hadn't posted it 3 weeks ago when i rebuilt mine, 'cos i would have gone for that, then i could have backed up your claims, but never mind.
Did you need longer m10 capscrews for the fork bottoms into the damper?

Now i have the "feel" for my bike again, the front end does feel quite hard, but i think i can get used to it.

There is no "perfect setup", because we all have individual heights, weights, riding styles etc. but innit ace that we can all throw our own ideas and experiences into this "raptor soup" for others to try, who may otherwise not know about or consider.